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 Is it a Miracle?

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rogorm

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PostSubject: Re: Is it a Miracle?   Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:40 am

Raising the dead, calming the seas, walking on water, changing water to wine ... Fact or myth in your opinion?
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BarristerBud

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PostSubject: Re: Is it a Miracle?   Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:25 am

rogorm wrote:
Raising the dead, calming the seas, walking on water, changing water to wine ... Fact or myth in your opinion?

Fact, but based upon miracle, not science...I would define miracle as a divine power to temporarily alter natural law that has already been set in place by God.

I feel there is a lot more to explain about my claim of fact. But I have to eat and shower still and then get ready to go see the opera production of The marriage of Figaro. tongue

Ok ok, I'm actually looking forward to it.
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rogorm

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PostSubject: Re: Is it a Miracle?   Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:51 pm

I would submit to you that you can not separate science from divine power. We do not have one set of physical laws for some people, and another set for others. Jesus lived in the same world as we do, but had a much better understanding of the spiritual laws that lay beneath the physical ones, which enabled him to perform miracles.

Enjoy the show!
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BarristerBud

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PostSubject: Re: Is it a Miracle?   Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:45 pm

Science is easily separable from divine power, at least divine power in the Christian sense.

Jesus did live as both man and God, however, I believe it would be incorrect to say he was "under" spiritual laws because this would imply that the spiritual laws were above him, meaning something existed that was higher than God's power.

Man would be under physical laws (we'll call this science), man did not create the laws of physics, God did. Therefore God could, presumably, change them at will, and if you grant he is an omnipotent being, then he can do this. But if you say God can not change something, then you are 1. depriving God of his omnipotence, and 2. Saying that this "thing" exists outside of God.

This kind of leads to the old trick question, "Can God create a rock so large that not even He can move it?"

Anyway, point being, I see it as divine power is what created science, and man has merely to discover it. Divine power created, thus it can alter it as well, and when such an altercation takes place...voila, miracle.
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rogorm

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PostSubject: Re: Is it a Miracle?   Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:04 pm

OK, I can't really debate this any further with you due to basic philisophical differences.

I do have a question, which may lead to a new thread:

How would your beliefs be affected if it were scientifically proven that Jesus had a human father (genetically)?
(please don't play the semantics game)
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BarristerBud

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PostSubject: Re: Is it a Miracle?   Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:11 pm

rogorm wrote:
OK, I can't really debate this any further with you due to basic philisophical differences.

I do have a question, which may lead to a new thread:

How would your beliefs be affected if it were scientifically proven that Jesus had a human father (genetically)?
(please don't play the semantics game)

Ok, this goes against the very foundation of my beliefs, but HYPOTHETICALLY, I would say it would set me wayyyy back in my faith if not to restructure it altogether.

And if I start playing semantics, I apologize, but I'm being brainwashed into thinking and playing with semantics. (and incurring huge amounts of debt to learn how).
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Trench
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PostSubject: Re: Is it a Miracle?   Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:16 am

Here is how I explain this... God, for lack of a better word, is omnipotent. Granted. However, I do not see 'God' as being a concious being with 'his' own plans and designs. Though, I do believe in fate (in a sense), but that is an issue for another time. Basically, what I'm saying is where 'God' COULD do whatever, I don't believe there's the 'desire' to do so. I don't believe 'God' weeps if you don't believe in 'him'. I don't believe 'he' is vengeful or loving, but a neutral entity from which all things come. I would have to sit here and write quite the document to explain all this in detail, but the bottom line is this...

There are laws that have been created that man lives in. However, we are not fully aware of all such laws. I am currently working on theories that would possibly explain how one might turn 'water to wine', which Mephy had helped to realize they're in need of refining. I'm not saying such explinations aren't possible, but that there are explinations beyond 'because he has the power of the divine'. He may just have more faith and more power in this belief of faith in his abilities than your common man, but I do not believe that he had lived outside of the same laws of man that we all do.

Of course, as with anything else, this is only my belief.

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PostSubject: Re: Is it a Miracle?   Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:24 am

Oh, yeah... To answer the question that was asked, though... I believe it to possibly be fact, though perhaps with a matter of exaggeration on some stories. Afterall, these stories were not written as they happened, they were only passed down from generations by word of mouth until written. But, I believe there is some level of truth.

But, that does bring up a good point. Jesus was able to perform miracles because of him being 'Son of God' and all... But, what of Moses parting the water? Or the staves to snakes? Or other miracles performed by people not claiming to be Son of God?

Just sayin'...

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BarristerBud

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PostSubject: Re: Is it a Miracle?   Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:24 am

Those are explained in the Bible Trench, many many people have performed miracles. But this power didn't come from them.

Jesus said that with faith as small as a mustard seed one could move mountains.

Those that were able to break physical laws as I call them, derived that power from the divine, be it God or Satan. And yes, I believe Satan can grant the power to perform miracles as well.
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rogorm

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PostSubject: Re: Is it a Miracle?   Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:42 pm

I'm more or less in line with Trench. I believe that ther is one God, one power, one source of all that is. I believe that Power has intelligence, which is reflected in miracles we all witness every day. I believe It is, above all else, consistant. It does not change It's mind every couple of thousand years, selecting a new "chosen" group of followers. It created spiritual laws, and the physical laws we observe are a natural extension of those.

Being the Source of all things, it is not possible for this Power to create something equal to or greater than Itself (read Satan). I believe that God did not create evil. Rather evil is the separation we choose to place between ourselves and the Source.
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